Episode notes:

• Follow Tip on LinkedIn

• Follow Lashon on LinkedIn

• Learn more about NGMA 

• Get info about NGMA’s Annual Grants Training

• Read about the dismantling of USAID

• Learn about the CGMS certification

• Listen to our episode with Matthew Hanson

• View all NGMA’s events

Transcript:

This transcript was automatically generated.

Welcome to Impact Audio. I'm Sam Kaplan, Vice President of Social Impact at Submittable. Today I'm joined by Tip Tucker Kendall and Lashawn Brown from the National Grants Management Association.

TIP is the executive director of NGMA, and Lashawn serves as president of the board while also working as the assistant vice president of grant development and compliance at Valencia College. They've both seen firsthand how the changes at the federal level have impacted the community of public sector grantmakers. Pulling from their personal experience and feedback from NGMA members, Dip and Lashan share their take about what grantmakers should be focused on right now and what it means to be in this role at this moment.

They offer great advice for anyone working in government grant making.

Tip, Tucker, Kendall, and Lashawn Brown are my guests on Impact Audio.

You guys are from the National Grants Management Association, and welcome to Impact Audio. I'm excited to have this conversation with both of you today.

Thanks so much, Sam, for inviting us and talking grants with us today.

Thank you. We're happy to be here because grants are an exciting topic, as we all know.

It is an exciting time in the world of grants management, isn't it?

It is.

Tip, do you want to maybe just kick us off with a little bit of introduction about the organization, NGMA, that both of you are part of?

Sure.

NGMA started in nineteen seventy eight. We are the professional association for anyone who is managing and administering grants. And that's any type of grant, although most of our members do manage federal awards. Sometimes it's a mixture, but they are managing some federal awards.

We have just short of seven thousand members in our current membership, and we do all things education. So we have a large annual meeting every year called the annual grants training that happens in DC. We hold monthly webinars. We have sector meetings where we connect our nonprofit, our higher ed, our local governments so that they can talk about their specific issues.

We have topical meetings on grants. We're launching new online courses this year. So really our goal is to increase the overall competency of grants managers, make sure they understand how to manage those grants, stay compliant and also work within their organizations to be the best at managing grants.

And I go to the NGMA annual grants training conference every year. It is a very incredible and patriotic affair.

Last year, this past conference was my second or maybe third time to go. And you had every year there's like something like super patriotic to kick things off, which I think is really cool.

Every year there's something different to come and not like the conference before. There's always something new.

That's right. So Tip, you serve as the CEO of the organization and Lashawn, you were the incoming president of the board, if I got the title right. So tell me a little bit about kind of what you guys do in those roles and Lashawn would also love to hear a little bit about your background.

Yeah, sure. Lashawn Brown, hello. Lashawn Brown, I am the Assistant Vice President of Grant Development and Compliance in my day job at Valencia College. That is a state college, here in Florida, Orlando, Florida.

And state colleges in Florida, the institution has to have at least one bachelor's degree. So we do, we have four, I believe. And so we're a state college. Most people know community college, but similar.

I the grant works for the college. Obviously the grant works for the college. So on the development, so all the proposal writing development, developing the ideas for the college's priorities align with our strategic plan. And then once awarded on the post award side, the compliance and all of the regulations and learning how to manage and stay compliant with the grant.

And that's how I learned about NGMA in twenty twelve when I was a new grants manager hired. And I was like, I've never met in a federal grant. I Googled and found NGMA and I've been there ever since. So I've been a member since twenty twelve, been on the board since twenty twenty.

And so now I'm happy to be an honored actually to be the incoming president. So that's a little bit of my background.

And so for NGMA, the board, our responsibility is really to be the voice of our constituents and make sure that we are aligning with what our priorities are, offerings, make sure we have, we train and our members have a place to go to understand what grants management is and how to develop and how to grow. So we have this educational arm and then the professional development to make sure like, what is a grant, what skills do you need to be a grants manager? What, you know, how do you engage? Because managing grants takes more than just the manager and the chair.

It takes your procurement office. It takes your grants accounting team. It takes your finance team. So how do you communicate with your institution if you're higher ed or just your colleagues or other departments to manage grants successfully?

So that's our goal as a board is to make sure we're, of course, being good stewards of the funds, make sure we're guiding our members to make sure that we are in alignment with those things that we need to do to be successful.

Grants management is a really interesting profession. And it's one that, as children, we don't think, I want to grow up and be a grants professional.

How exactly do people kind of fall into this career and, and Lashawn to your, to your point about skills, what would be the key skillset that a grants manager in this space needs?

Sounds very simple, but helping people to read. I mean, it sounds very simple. So a lot of times, you know, people So for our institution, the grants manager, if you will, is a professional that helps the person on the ground. So for us, we have a project director who actually does the work, the day to day operations of the grants, the deliverables, seeing students or whatever the case is, whatever we've told the funder we're going to do. And so as the manager, our goal is to understand what the terms and conditions are, like understand and be able to interpret and to give guidance to the people who are doing the work. So the skill, I mean, you have to be able to, in my opinion and things that I've learned is read and understand, and it seems very simple, but really do read and understand and be able to have good communication skills so that you're interpreting the regulations and the terms in a way that the end user can understand.

And also having good organizational skills, think is important because a lot of times if we're taking the federal grant, there are forms and deadlines and reporting requirements and they all don't line up. So just being able to understand what is due when, there's annual items that you have to submit. So really organization, reading, be able to interpret and just having good communication so you know how to guide and lead your team.

Yeah, I've been working at that intersection of technology and grant making for the last dozen years.

And I so do not have the skill set to be a grants manager, like the level of minutiae that they deal with. And especially in the government space with uniform guidance, like there so many rules and regulations and procedures and processes and always thinking about audits and always thinking about reporting like, you know, in spite of the fact that this isn't a career that people, go to college for advanced degrees in, it takes an incredible amount of skill and talent and patience and willingness to deal with all that minutiae to really be an effective grants manager.

Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. And sometimes you find yourself as a grant. So when I started, wasn't a grants manager, I actually was a counselor for substance abuse program.

And so I was on a grant, paid through a grant, and then I'm just understanding the nuances. Then when I had another job, was with the state and ended up managing different partners. So I kind of fell into it accidentally because you're right, no one grows up. Well, maybe now, but back then you didn't grow up saying, I want to be a grants manager, or you were and didn't know what it was.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, so let's just get right down to brass tacks here. Like, is this a good time to be a grants manager in the grant making space? Like when I attended the annual grants training conference earlier this year, like the new administration hadn't been in place for very long.

And there were these executive orders with language, you know, like, hey, we're not going to fund like, you know, Marx ist organizations and support, you know, I mean, it was like, it was all of a sudden, there was just chaos in in the grant making space and in government, and we were seeing funding that was suddenly halted or, you know, they were trying to claw back dollars that had been allocated for grants, programs were being reviewed to see if they would even continue to be programs in the future. You know, whole agencies out there like USAID were essentially dismantled. And grants managers in the government space, I think, have largely absorbed the brunt of all of this change.

Like a lot of them, I think, have lost their positions because there are no dollars to grant. The ones that are still around are having to work super hard to interpret like the wishes of the new administration and really like, you know, sort of verify and validate every dollar is being used in a way that the administration would approve of. So what is the feel right now among grants managers in NGMA?

I think I'll start. I think that what we've seen is a lot of just needing to be patient.

Know when a lot of the changes were happening, even I'm talking to Lashawn, I'm talking to other members of our board and they're saying, we've been through rescissions, we've been through big changes in grants before, and we need to have patience and kind of watch it play out. And I think really been I think if you came to AGT, a lot of that discussion was how do we just calm the room a little bit and walk through what is going to happen in the next few months? Certainly, how it's been done has been a little bit of whiplash to grants managers, I think particularly around some of those executive orders.

And I know I work in the nonprofit space. So for us where DEI was maybe such a foundational part of what we've been doing for a long time inserted into not just our grants, but things like our code of ethics or maybe we have part of our core values. There's been a whiplash because there's an environment that was very supportive of that effort and maybe not so much now. And so I think for grants management, it's the same way.

It's like we're having some really deep conversations with our stakeholders internally to understand who are we, how are we going to move forward in maybe a different environment. That's a good thing. I think that dialogue is a positive. But I also think that, yes, there's a degree of whiplash and worry.

What does this hold for our grants? For some folks, if you have ninety percent of your revenue is federal grants, you're sweating quite a lot right now. I think for a lot of our grants managers, they are now looking at their revenue strategies and trying to understand how do they pivot a little bit or forecast a little differently. And so there's a lot going on to just sort of reevaluate where they are right now, but also maybe how they're going do some things differently.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would quite agree if I could. And I'm not speaking for my institution, but just the higher ed lens, because that's where I work every day. I think two things, pivot and embracing change, are really at the end of the day.

Because yeah, while there's been change before, I felt a little different in that, and that's true, and have to acknowledge that. I think it just gives you a time to focus on, okay, our role is grants management. That still exists, right? And we're after the calm and just like taking a breath, the grants and the funds are there, may not look the same, may not be in the same place.

Things are starting to move forward. So I think it's just taking a moment to see, okay, what is our role? What do we need to do? So I don't know that we're here in the conversation yet, but some of the things that we've started to do is like, okay, so if we're talking about managing grants, what does that look like?

That looks like having policies and procedures, right? That looks like having our systems in which we're managing our grants. That looks like better tracking. It looks like making sure we understand our deliverables.

And it looks like also, let's look at our spending and make sure we're spending as we need to, right? Some of the things you kind of take for granted sometimes I feel in having a grant, you're just, you know, business as usual. It just makes you stop and like, okay, what are we doing and why are we doing it? So, well, I do think it was, you know, whiplash and some uncertainty.

Truly some funds may not go forward, but I do think it's opportunity to look at your systems and make sure you're prepared for what's to come and diversifying. Like we had, we're higher ed, so we have a lot of federal grants. And so do we look at some private foundation grants and do we look at other funding opportunities to fill gaps that if some federal funds are reduced or changed, how do we fill that gap? So it's forced us out of maybe being comfortable, let's apply for a five million dollars grant that solves the whole problem. Maybe we have diversity in funds where we have five grants to solve five problems.

Yeah. And I would add too that talking about grants has not necessarily been a bad thing. I remember in February thinking, gosh, when's the last time I read indirect costs on the front page of a newspaper?

But here we are and I know what it means. And so I think to some degree, it's good that we're having a discussion about grants. I think as we the environment right now is talking about reducing fraud or reducing any waste, and that's what our members do every day. They are there on the front lines making sure that federal tax dollars are used according to federal guidance. So there's no one better to be talking about than the incredible skills that grants managers have to make sure that that money is managed correctly. And so to me, it's a great time as a grants manager to establish themselves in this career and really become experts.

And yeah, to your point too, I don't think anyone knew what I did before this year. I think they knew, but I got calls saying, Are you okay? So it was like, Oh, so you do know what I do? It was, to your point, it brings awareness as to the importance of grants. Some of the departments and funding really cover some of the things you don't think about, like, you know, for us, student Pell grants, like grants cover those or funding supports that. So areas that you just take for granted or just assume that are and continue year after year, it kind of brought light to the importance of grants, the importance of grants managers and someone to make sure that we're being good stewards of these funds.

Yeah. So I want to build on that a little bit. So it is important that people are talking about grants. I think that's a great thing really for, like, all of philanthropy and especially for grants managers. What I do know about grants management is that probably seventy five percent of what you guys do is behind the scenes and most people will never know about it or really understand what it is that you do in spite of the fact that it's critically important. I'm curious to know is NGMA thinking about how you can help your membership better explain and promote what they do in terms of being grants managers and why that's so important to all of us.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think we've worked really hard to tell that story a little bit better in the last couple of years, particularly as we've grown so much because we've gone just in my four years from about two thousand nine hundred members almost to seven thousand. So we've seen an uptick in people just knowing who NGMA is and also an uptick in the profession in general.

But I do think that telling that story about what our managers do and what our members do is really, really important. We're right now in the middle of a journey to launch a new website, which will have a new area in it around what is a grants management. We have a page right now, but we'd like to have a whole area that kind of explains how federal grants work and how important our grants managers are to making sure that they are administered effectively.

And I think too, we've talked about doing, we've done some marketing. We want to do more around, you know, why do we love this profession? Like, what is wonderful about being a grants manager and why is it so valuable? So we've done a couple of those campaigns in the last year and we want to do more of that. So not only do we spread the word about perspective, you know, folks who are thinking about this as a job, helping them understand what it is. But also now that we're talking about grants, let's let people know what a grants manager is, that it's not just an environment where a check is handed off and nothing happens after that. And it really is a place where you have someone doing a lot of work to make sure that every dime is accounted for.

And I'll add to what Tip said in that, even speaking as a board member now, one of the investments I'll call it that made is in our certified grants management specialists, CGMS, which I am one of those holders. And it is really a credential and it brings validity and professionalism and value to the work of grants managers. So it shows that you really do understand how, you know, how to manage this work, how to track, how to an institution or organization how you maintain these grants. So we're really trying to bring like value and recognition to the industry by a credential.

And I think that's one of the ways we do it. So we recognize lawyers and accountants by those credentials. So we really have invested a lot of time and money in this credential to show that we're experts. And when you have a CGMS title or the letters behind your name that shows that you understand this, you know how to talk the talk, you know how to bring people along and you understand what it takes to manage these grants.

So I think that's one of the things to your point, like what is an NGMA doing? We're bringing value to profession with a credential. So we have a whole committee and we have a test and you have to study for it, you know, just like any other professional credentials. So we're really proud of that.

And when you see that, and I know that speaking on my Valencia AVP hat, when we put in our applications that we have someone who at the time director that has a CGMS that's certified in this. The feds like it, funders like it because it says, oh, you understand how to manage this. Like we won't get return funds.

You won't have any findings.

We show that we have, the qualifications to maintain these awards. So that's what we're doing. We're trying to bring value to the profession.

I'm super excited that you have this professional certification, and I agree. I think it lends a lot of credibility and it helps demonstrate the professionalism of those who are doing the role. I think that it also illustrates that this is a career. This isn't a job that you do for a couple of years and then move on to go do something else. There are people who make a lifelong career out of being a grants management professional.

Yeah. And a lot of times, it's interesting that when I became a CJMS, I put those letters like my other ones, like anyone else after your name? They're like, What does this mean? And so I get to talk about it and they're like, oh, wow, there's a credential, there's a certification for this?

It's like, yes. And so even right now people will listen, at least not always agree, but listen, when you have the credentials and you're seen as an expert, you know, in my institution, I would like to think that they see me as an expert in like, okay, I'm giving you my best, you know, recommendation, my best suggestions as to how to address this. And they value that. I will say that it's valued, appreciated, and I think it speaks highly of the profession.

Like you say, it's not just a job, it's a career. I've been doing this. I'm going on thirteen years in this profession, specifically as a grants manager role in next month. So yeah, something that I love.

I love it.

I know on the private grant making side of the house, that the grants management role over the last several years has begun to make this evolution from being viewed as very administrative to being more of a leadership position at a private foundation. And one of the big reasons for that is that grants managers are often the conduit between the individuals or the nonprofit organizations who are receiving dollars, and organizations who are granting it. You have that perspective of all the work that a nonprofit is doing, the impact that they're achieving in community.

Are you also seeing that in government grant making that the grants management role is beginning to evolve from that administrative function to one that's viewed more as a leader in the organization or agency?

I think so. I know that with some of our, and I'll just say from what my knowledge of the federal space and the grants that we have, I know that we have, the program officers that we have, we have great ones. We show them how we partner with the person on the ground doing the work, and they value that role. See it as a support for the people doing the work.

So I think so. And I think when, like I said, when we apply for grants, we put that role in there and that we have this department that manages, and I think that's valued. And even on our private, we have a foundation, Valencia has a foundation. We partner with them.

Our grants managers partner with the foundation. So in terms of like the foundation is the one that's going to, you know, out there looking for opportunities, finding funders, and then we support them in the, we're gonna help achieve the goals and deliverables and the outcomes and the reporting. They see like, okay, there's an arm of the college that is going to seek funds, and then there's an arm of the college who will help manage. So I think there is value in that.

I would agree. Again, I'm not sure what within the federal space, what those perceptions are, but I think we talked about the growth of the profession in general. I think that's because there has been an increased desire to have that person have accountability in an organization for performance and for compliance, and particularly in the nonprofit space.

And I think that that has been an important connection point to the agencies, to the grant making agencies. And so I think just as federal grants have evolved, grantees, seen the need to have that expertise. We're seeing that grant manager lifted into maybe discussions they didn't have five years ago or ten years ago because now they're a critical piece in the strategy of the organization.

Yeah, and support the people who are doing the work. Because a lot of times the people who are making the grant happen and getting the students in our case, they don't understand the small print of the contract and what's to come. So even having that grant manager support the people or teams that are doing the work is seen as a value. Also, I know in the federal grants that we have, because that's not common, it's usually like the, principal investigator or the project directors out there just doing the work. They're trying to get the day to day done and then who's helping, you know, with the small print or understand the uniform guidance, which they don't always read and not supposed to all the time.

Having that support is a value, I believe.

Lashawn, you have been the president of the board now for, I think, just over like a month and a half or so.

As you get your bearings in this role, like how do you hope to see that organization change or evolve during your presidency?

Yeah, I think evolve is a word. I don't know that there's much we change. I think we're doing things really well.

And I think to continue to understand what's happening and how we continue to support, like having the conversations, for instance, years ago when the uniform guidance changed, you know, being in the forefront and one of the leading associations to help our members understand what the changes are, what they mean, what they have to do. I think that's our work. Even now as things around us may be changing, you know, helping our members understand that change. I think it's more like evolving as things evolve.

When things change, being able to give our members tools or access or resources for tools to help them do their work. So I think for us, it's an evolution. We were just doing it right. When you go from two thousand five hundred members, seven thousand, I don't think there's a lot of change. I think it's more keep evolving to what's happening around us and to be the calm, right? When things around us don't feel calm, to like put perspective in there and just get people resources to help our members. I think that's what we continue to do.

And like I said, and also the other part of evolving is bringing value to the profession and our credential. I think those are the things that we continue to evolve and do. I think that's what I see. See. I won't say we're perfect, but we're close, but we just continue to evolve with the times and make sure that in any change that does happen around us to be able to respond to that, just because we evolve, there might be changes around us. Like for instance, the uniform guidance changes, we'll be prepared for those changes, so prepare to respond. So that's what I mean by our evolution.

Yeah.

Yeah. Tip, what is it like planning that annual grants training conference? I think last year there were around two thousand people that attended.

Fun.

Yeah. And I know that this is probably the day after the conference ends, you start planning for the next one. Tell us what it's like getting ready for that sort of event.

It is all hands on deck for quite a long time.

People don't realize it is only three days, but it is really about nine months of our year as a staff where we're talking about it and planning it at some level.

It's what we do. I'm a professional association manager. That's what I've done for twenty five years. And we say convention or meeting life is sort of what we live.

It's the center of our world. It's everything that we work up to every year. So being in that room with all those members that you serve every year is really our joy. It fills our tank up so that we can come back and do the work in the office the rest of the year to see face to face those members that you've talked to over email or on Zoom.

It's just extraordinary. And I get I love the AGT meeting. Love, you know, I just love that whole feel of having everyone together. There's such energy attached to it. But the planning process is tough and this year was a pretty tough one coming in just six weeks after the administration came in and paused grants. So you know, by the time the federal pause happened, we began to lose about a third of all of our content because our connection to the federal agencies is so tight that many of our speakers could no longer speak.

And then some of our members who were going to speak lost funding and could not attend. So we had to replace about twenty sessions in a very short amount of time. And we had to see it as an opportunity.

We got an opportunity to reshape the content of the meeting to meet the moment, which was really important. I think if we had those sessions that we had chosen back in October and November, that it would have felt very out of place. And so we were really able to reshape it so that we could set a specific tone, which was that building of community. Hey, we're all in this together and talk about, yeah, we've got some interesting times ahead of us and we're going to navigate it together. And I do feel like this particular meeting was maybe one of the ones I'm most proud of to be a part of. And most, yeah, I walked away going, how do we top this? Because there was such a wonderful atmosphere around it, even though we were sitting in the nation's capital where grants were being discussed.

In real time, we're like, well, what's going to happen today? What news is going to drop? But yeah, I think that planning process is a tough one. I would say our staff really doesn't take a day off for about six to eight weeks before the meeting because we are just all in deep, deep planning to make sure that event goes off well.

Yeah, it was a great event. And as an attendee, I'd never would have guessed that there were that many sessions that got replaced, you know, probably in the weeks leading up to the event, was pulled off and executed just beautifully.

And one of the things that was that I really liked about the conference was getting to see Matt Hansen from Wit O'Brien speak in a couple different sessions. I recently had the opportunity to have him on Impact Audio here. I'd love to ask either LaShawn or Tip, like who are some thought leaders or rock stars in this space that people should be paying attention to?

That's a good question.

Yeah, I think it depends on what you're needing. Matt is certainly one of those folks that I call to get a very real perspective on what's going on.

He has such a depth of experience.

But I know the first day on stage, I had to replace the whole first panel that we did.

And I was looking for experts in each sort of part of the grant and people with different experiences. So for example, Kim Joyce. Kim Joyce is an associates. They do not only grants management, but they really specialize in pre award.

We knew we needed some pre award voice on that panel. We always look to our accounting firms and we have some wonderful folks that are cap partners. We have a program called our Corporate Alliance Partnership Program where we have about forty five companies and they're tech companies, accounting firms, grants consultants, you name it. They are very often the folks that come and fill the gap because they see such a breadth of clients.

They can say, hey, this is what we're seeing on the ground or here's a place that we know that we can help you with some education or help you understand the scenario. So I've got a pretty good list of folks that I can call and say, hey, we're really needing some help on this topic. Say grant terminations, which we never covered as a topic before. We're now having to cover pretty often.

So helping folks. So we look to those partners and say, hey, we have these topics we know we need. Can you help us develop some education?

But one of the other side is we now have an instructional designer on staff and we coordinate task forces that allow us to build education for whatever we need. So we can put together groups of members with our instructional designer to build education to Lashan so that we can be responsive, like Lashan said, to whatever our members need. So we have a lot of avenues for thought leadership.

Last question for both of you is any advice that you have for the NGMA community as they look ahead to the next six months, the remainder of the year, like what should we all be thinking about in terms of doing our jobs better, You know, issues that we should be paying attention to, you know, any sort of advice that you would offer up to the grants managers who are listening to us today?

Maybe I'll start with some of what we're doing or the advice I take for myself and my team.

Stay informed, meaning read for yourself and understand for yourself. Because we hear a lot of things sometimes directly or indirectly or pieces of information. So I would say stay informed and just read and make sure you understand.

Like for us, when I hear something or get something, I talk to our leadership to get them a heads up and even talk to our counsel. So I understand what is our part, what this really means. So really stay informed and then just keep doing what we do. Like our job is compliance and making sure that we are managing our grant, keep doing that because the grants that we still have, still need to be managed.

We still need to have the internal controls. We need still need to reduce fraud, waste and abuse and have efficiency that remains. And honestly, with any future funding, that still is the expectation. So we keep doing what we're doing.

Like the environment around us may change, things may feel uncertain, but we keep doing what we're doing because at the end of the day, we're grants management, we're professionals, we have a job to do, we have outcomes to maintain, we have deliverables to do. So I think we keep doing what we're doing. I know that sounds very simple. It's not very simple, but if we keep doing what we're doing, then we'll remain in compliance, which when the opportunities come again, then we'll be ready.

Because the other thing is when you apply for what funding is there, you have to show past performance, right? And so if you're focusing on what not focusing, if we're getting caught up into what is or what isn't and not making sure we're doing what we always need to do with our current risks that we're not putting ourselves in a great position for future. Right. So to say, continue to do what we do.

Yeah. Tip, how about you? Any parting words for all of your members who are listening?

Yeah. I'm a big believer in community and it's one of the reasons I do this job.

I believe that we, by nature, need other people and need those sources of support. And one of the places that gets maybe not as much fanfare is our professional community. And at this time, where there is lots of unknowns, where there is stress, I would say lean into that professional community.

Your husband or wife may not always understand where you are, but your colleagues and grants do right now.

And so when you have those moments to show up for a Zoom conversation or to come to AGT or another professional meeting, do that because I do think that there is tremendous value in that connection and it can help you become a better professional. And I think the other thing, LaShawn talked a little bit about CGMAS, one of the things we've seen is that during this time, as people really are starting to think about the next steps in their career or what the next three to five years might look like in grants, they are leaning into making themselves better. So they are going to get their credential, whether it's a CGMS or another credential, really focusing on how to make themselves as prepared as they can be for whatever comes down the road professionally. And so I would say those are a couple of things that our grants managers can do during this time of uncertainty.

And just to add to that tip, I would add that your NGMA community forum on the NGMA website is just an incredible place to make those connections with other grants managers, to be able to ask those very esoteric questions that only grants managers would ever ask and then find a whole community of people who have opinions and answers.

I definitely check out those forums very regularly to get get my bearings and to, you know, really understand like what what grants managers are thinking about right now, what their challenges are, how they're solving those challenges.

And I think it was a really invaluable experience a couple of months back when there was all of that flux and everybody was really uncertain about what the future of that grants management profession was going to look like. It was a great place just to be able to get together and commiserate a little bit with other grants managers.

Absolutely. And we will in September, we typically do an ask me anything. And I find that there's a lot of grants managers who are just out there going, I have one question. Can I just ask one question? Well, we have a whole board. You can come and ask questions and get ten responses from your colleagues in grants management. I think it's a wonderful tool for that community building, the other three sixty two days out of the year that we're not at AGT.

Nice.

Tip and Lashan, thank you both so much for this fun conversation. This has been really informative. I think that the audience is going to be checking out the NGMA website and message forums and making the case to attend the conference early next year. So I know I will be there and I'll look forward to getting to hang out with both of you in person.

I look forward to it.

Thank you for having us.

Thanks so much.

What a good reminder that no one out there has to face all these changes alone. Government grantmakers are juggling so much right now. They're trying to keep up with existing work while adjusting to new rules and budgets, and even anticipating more change.

I'm really glad NGMA is helping to bring this group together and keep the connections strong. That's all for me today. Thanks for tuning in to Impact Audio, produced by your friends Submittable. Until next time.